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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:04 am 
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SteamAbacus wrote:Topically.....

"Wisconsin teacher removed for essay defending Ku Klux Klan"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38383146


[edit] And again ...

"Fascism, the 1930s and the 21st Century"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38317787

...end quote...


@SteamAbacus ~
^ Good call by the Charter on deeming that school assignment inappropriate for seventh grade ~ that sounded to me like something geared toward university law school for defence attorney study.



@BlackAdder :

just to add to what Mpc said (previous page), it pays to remember a couple of things :

1) constitutional rights differ from civil rights in that the former is essentially a prerogative (duty) expressly established by a sovereign nation's constitution, which is founded as supreme law, which means that any individual local or district laws (below national level) which contradict the principles of the national document (example: racist State laws) are regarded as invalid.
The civil rights movement was a protest to abolish local and State laws which were seen as contrary to citizens rights under the constitution.

And ~

2) The same rights in the U.S. constitution which protect all minorities, such as those KKK marchers, also protect pro-socialist and pro-democracy demonstrators.

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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:46 pm 
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yes i understand what you saying, just think thats sick, thats all. US fighted against nazi and now they gonna see marching nazis or kkk one their streets. And those are for genocide, killings, rasist laws will be protected by some civil or state rights laws or whatever. Thats sick. Like in Poland or maybe in front of auschwitz we will see SS marches and they will be protected by civil or state rights? Sorry, but thats sick. Specialy is sick that country who had/have so much problems with rasism to tolerate this. In US all this nazi, kkk etc.... should be forbiden like murder.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:55 pm 
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Mpc wrote:There is no inherent truth in a photograph Mr Black Adder. Your taking sound bites from moments in history and peicing them togethor to find something to believe. The photographs of the " National Front" march were shot by me circa 2003. It is Remembrance day in London, there are a significant number of WW11 veterans within that march. There is no overt aggression here, no protest. They are exercising their right to show their group respect, on a day of respect. The football skins, are just a bunch of kids posing for my camera after I wound them up post Euro 2003 match after the pub. I have the trump card off camera in that next to me is the Police riot van with an extremy large alsation, the dribbly and snarly kind.
Absolutely no point in going on the internet, selecting and cherry picking images and text and assembling a jig saw to your liking. Question the nature of your orders, particularly those from a search engine.
As far as the Russian Ambassador, RIP, well the CIA theory is a linear standard, how about the one that two years ago he stepped on a bug that was in fact an allien life form and planet Zargo took him out ?


@



"To find something to believe"??? - All right, you keep your nazis and kkk on your streets and call that freedom of the speech, I still think thats sick. That was my point.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:10 pm 
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I personally have never seen a "Glory Suite" on the streets of England, but I have lead a sheltered life, in fact I've not even seen a glory hole. Can't recall if I've seen a Swastika post punk, skate or music in UK. Last time I saw one was tatooed on a Thai girls shoulder in Bangkok. However I am pretty certain, if I had a mind to, I could search the internet to find examples of such things in UK. But I have better things to do.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:45 pm 
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Most 1% er's have Nazi memorabilia on their person's and on their bikes.
It has nothing to do with the holocaust or anti-semitism.
Over 17,000,000 indigenous natives died during the European occupation of America.
It happened too far back in the past for a person to dwell on it and rot over it.

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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:22 pm 
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black adder wrote:yes i understand what you saying, just think thats sick, thats all. US fighted against nazi and now they gonna see marching nazis or kkk one their streets. And those are for genocide, killings, rasist laws will be protected by some civil or state rights laws or whatever. Thats sick. Like in Poland or maybe in front of auschwitz we will see SS marches and they will be protected by civil or state rights? Sorry, but thats sick. Specialy is sick that country who had/have so much problems with rasism to tolerate this. In US all this nazi, kkk etc.... should be forbiden like murder.

...end quote...


In a perfect world, everyone would think racism, bigotry, fascism, etc. is sick. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. That being the case, it would be hypocrisy to constitutionalise freedom of expression but then turn around and say white supremacists don't have that same right. That would be discrimination against an ideology we do not happen to believe in. Once you make constitutional rights arbitrary that way, then who gets to decide what is right and what is wrong? Today it might be someone who agrees with us ~ after the next election, it could be someone who does not agree with us. That is why the constitution exists ~ so that rights of freedom are not arbitrarily decided by whomever happens to hold public office at the moment.

What I have found to be the case with patriotic Americans I've spoken with, when it comes to these KKK \nazi marches ~ we all do exactly the opposite of what the parade is intended to do ~ we simply ignore them. drawing attention to their cause is giving the nazis what they want ~ publicity. I blame the media for being guilty of helping their white-supremacy message by giving their activities publicity through news coverage. However, when the subject is brought into the public forum of political debate, I shall join with those who oppose it vehemently. But if it's just a bunch of racists waving their signs and shouting slogans of their twisted ideology, then I simply pay them no mind. As long as they are not breaking the law, then as far as I am concerned, they are nothing more than trash blowing down the street.


[Edit] :

black adder wrote: .......... rasist laws will be protected by some civil or state rights laws or whatever. Thats sick. ..............

...end excerpt....


That's not the point here.

The fact is: racist laws are not protected by civil liberties in the U.S. ! Those laws were abolished by the Civil Rights Act in 1964.

The issue here is not about laws that say African-Americans cannot ride on the same bus as Caucasians, or rules about how they cannot take a drink from the same public water fountain, or whatever. Those laws have already been abolished (taken away, removed).

The issue here is simply about the right to express an opinion .

Once you start to legislate which opinions are allowed and which are not allowed, then you give power over freedom of thought to whomever happens to be on government at any particular time.

Then we would have war in the struggle over who gets to legislate those rights.

The U.S. Constitution is designed to prevent that from happening.



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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:53 am 
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peace to all - Xanadu had it's own price - no such thing as a free lunch -haha! - let's stick together


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:02 am 
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voilodian ghagnasdiak wrote:Over 17,000,000 indigenous natives died during the European occupation of America.
It happened too far back in the past for a person to dwell on it and rot over it.


@

Genocide is genocide, it doesnt matter if it was 2 years ago or thousand years ago. Time doesnt erase crime.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:20 am 
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I understand what you are saying, I disagree with you. Marching of kkk or nazi etc.... tolerate them as group on streets is direct insult for their victims.
I was just see some documentary and reading somethiing from ww2 nazi crimes in ukraine. One woman was lying on thousands of bodies, playing dead, nazi were taking here jews and execute them. So she was playing dead and listening, she heard screaming of some child "mama mama mamaaaa!" than shoots, then silence, killed.
I was watching documentaries of something similar how they raped 9 year old girl and shot her after it, when first was raping here she screamed when other two continued she was silence, that was infront of her mother she didnt when those other two were doing it if she was dead already or unconsiense. Life of that girl was gone just like that.

Do you have daughter?

I have. So good and innocent little girl. Can I imagine what was the feeling of that mother when they were doing it infront of her that? No. I dont want to.

Those groups represent this. Nazis, kkk etc...

For me, every existence of such groups should be forbiden and punished like murder.
I am very clear about my statements. Those groups are cancer of humanity, their existence make me scared and other normal world. Thats why it is more acceptable for me to shoot them or take them to jail for very long time. It's unacceptable to give such groups freedom of the speech. Monsters doesnt diserve human rights, only human diserve human rights.

What is not clear about my statement? You need that to happen to your daughter? Genocide against you? Than you will consider what I am talking about.

Every group which is made for hatred and war, should be forbiden and destroyed. There is no human right philosophy about it, same as cancer, he is live too, but he is threat, and should be destroyed.

When those people start making arm mutiny or whatever, the its to late, because they will kill someone.
Its very clear what they represent. And I dont need any lection from human rights speech, when someone is threat take him in jail or shoot him. Pure and simple. In that situation who care about human rights, in extreme situation you dont think about human rights.

Maybe you didnt saw that situations. Thats why it seems to me we are in different worlds. Basics are: No threat, no hatred, no such groups. Than we can have phylosophy about human rights. Thats how I feel and many people here where I live.

PS Because of that kind of people we had civil war, many massacres, 200.000 dead, thousands of rapes etc.... When I watch documentaries and remember some stuf from tv, you know you have feeling: **** human rights, just shoot at bastards. You know?

There were to many wars on this planet, and thats why we learned that you can tolerate other people or you will have wars all the time. Thats why at least here, those groups are not welcome in any way.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:43 am 
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I wish you well BA - sorry to have to say - monologue/rant's is your choice - just because someone lives somewhere doesn't mean they speak for a nation - i sincerely hope you have enough to eat tonigh


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:43 am 
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Brown,

It have english subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4c8-Qtm3Tg

Thousands of examples on all sides. This was in heart of europe in 1990's. My monologue? After this maybe you will be little softer.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:56 am 
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wish you well BA - finished with this now - mind yourself


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:44 am 
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@Black Adder ~ tolerating a person's right to express an opinion is not the same thing as tolerating the ideology that is being expressed in that opinion. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a perfect example of that difference !

If you think about this, you will realise what I mean.

Of course those KKK parades are an insult to all those victims of racism. But insulting someone isn't a crime, and it never can be.
Can you imagine a world where insulting someone's sensibilities were punishable under law?

What if your opinion was an insult to me ?

Should I then have the law on my side to put you in jail or shoot you, plain and simple ?

Jailing or executing people for their opinions is what occurs under dictatorships ~ that is called tyrrany. And the one's who get to decide which "views" or "opinions" are offensive are the tyrants ~ Not you or I.

For what it is worth, there hasn't been a civil war in the United States in over 150 years.

If citizens there did not have the right to express an opinion without retribution or punishment by those who disagree, then that most certainly would not be the case !

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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:24 am 
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Vikmarlo,

Opinion can be criminal act. Thats not tyrrany, its defens from tyranny.
Here german law, and we have somthing like that too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgese ... ection_86a

It means: Every insignia of nazi is insult for victims, call for hatred, call for genocide, call for third reich, call for kill. This opinion insults not only victim it is threat to society. Something like that is in our law and neighbour countries.

Nazi, kkk, opinions are sick, they are against humanity, and thats why they are against the law.

There you go if you want our law (we are in EU), or some european too. Thats why I cant understand your arguments. For you its freedom of the speech, to me its tolerate of nazi opinion, for me those cant have right in this country for opinion. For us who is against that supporting nazis in some way, not politicly but as opinion. I cant explain to you better than this. Its not my country only, many european countrie have this law. Poland except this one have for communists too, but they are only one in EU about that. Hungary tried but failed. But nazi stuff is clear situation. In europe we didnt have kkk stuff so there is not specific law but organisations who spread hatred are against the law, their opinion is hatred.

I cant explain better.


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 Post subject: Re: WWIII
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:37 am 
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There is one more Law here, Its called something like 'public offence'. Which means if you have photos or insignia on street from those past regime's which were in war with this nation or those regime's commited crimes, it is 'offending nation emotions, and making public disorder', in those cases police arrest you and you will pay penalthy or go to jail, depends how big was this breaking law thing. We have that law too.


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