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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:43 pm 
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"Applicant admitted there was confusion, but said it was not dispositive because there were lots of different versions of HAWKWIND the band."

I hope the judges are smart enough to pick up on this insidious distortion of truth.

There are different line-ups Dave has had with him in Hawkwind.

There HAS ONLY EVER BEEN ONE VERSION of Hawkwind.

I hope it stays that way.


I'd hate to have to answer a question like :

Which version of HAWKWIND is this?”

...with the unthinkably ludacris answer:

" the one that recordes music and tours under the name Hawkwind, not the fake performance outfit that stole their trademark ".


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:22 pm 
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thank's for the update Jimsk - indeed Vik - well said! - i must admit to being a little unsettled - i more or less thought it was black or white and would have been a quick hearing and the longer it goes on the more unsettling it is i feel (i know zilch about the nuances of the law!) - i don't trust these types of situation's! - continued best wishes to Dave, Kris and the crew - let's hope justice will be done


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Thanks for the update.

I must say in relation to this bit: The Board was dubious of Opposer’s claim that HAWKWIND was famous among all concert-goers. Judge Gorowitz pointed out that she had never heard of the band.

that I've heard of two people in the recent-ish past, one who'd never heard of Led Zeppelin and another Pink Floyd. Not just not listened to, but never heard of! No-one would dispute they are famous bands...

Not that I would say Hawkwind are on that level of fame but I think there is a bigger fanbase than is suggested by the term 'cult band'.

I also think of Steven Wilson. A lot of people seem to have never heard of him, yet Michael Roe at Caroline Records (label to which he has just signed) pointed out that he has "a big and dedicated fanbase but someone who has not received the wider recognition I think he deserves."

That statement could probably apply to Hawkwind too...

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:07 pm 
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"Applicant admitted there was confusion, but said it was not dispositive because there were lots of different versions of HAWKWIND the band."


vikmarlo wrote:I hope the judges are smart enough to pick up on this insidious distortion of truth.

There are different line-ups Dave has had with him in Hawkwind.

There HAS ONLY EVER BEEN ONE VERSION of Hawkwind.

I hope it stays that way.


Yes, well said. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:28 am 
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There's a couple of things to note. First, it's just a commentary, not official, so it should be taken with a pinch of salt. It's also worth a re-read of a key phrase in the summary. I've highlighted something that sort of clarifies a point....

The Board’s toughest questions related to Opposer’s false association claim and the fame of the party asserting the claim. The Board was dubious of Opposer’s claim that HAWKWIND was famous among all concert-goers. Judge Gorowitz pointed out that she had never heard of the band.


Lastly, it's clear from the transcript that only 10 minutes was asked for to present the case, and that the judges said to go straight to the legal issues as they were fully aware of the details of the case. This shows that the core of the case remains documents filed by both sides, and the proceedings on the day were just the final stage, not the climax of the proceedings.

Oh, and I looked up the case they mentioned regarding 'de minimis' (effectively minimal usage). Here's a piece by someone who (coincidentally?) shares the same surname as the commentator: http://www.iplawtrends.com/christian-faith-fellowship-church-is-going-12-rounds-with-adidas-ag-in-david-versus-goliath-trademark-battle/.

In short, a church sold 2 hats with a logo that they then copyrighted by actual, not intended, use in commerce. Adidas then copyrighted a similar logo and an appeal on confusion occurred, which the church lost because the volume sold was deemed not to be high enough to warrant confusion.

As far as I can see there is no established minimum, so this could be used either way.

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:38 am 
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Points taken, thanks. I'm not sure we can know what the phrase "all concert goers" is even intended to mean.

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:37 pm 
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This means that the applicant's reason for issuing a claim to own the Hawkwind name is
primarily based on the recent non-use of the brand in the U.S. by the opposer?
Surely the non-stop production and sales of new HAWKWIND material in America
will defunct any such bogus accusations.
(I'm not referring to unauthorized re-issues of Dave Brock/Hawkwind's back catalogue.)

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Regarding the case between a church and Adidas that was cited, as I understand it, the church appealed and won the appeal. Maybe I missed something but if that is the case, it may hint to the judge suggesting that even minor use of the mark suggests in the favour of the opposer


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:18 pm 
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indeed - thanks for the update Jimsk - Dave was sick for the last planned US tour anyway so i wouldn't have thought there should be a gripe about that - i would imagine the cost of trying to tour the US again would be quite a large hit on Hawk resources - possibly a reason not to return and render the argument invalid that the copyright to the name hasn't been used across the water in recent years? - the fact that one of the judges hasn't heard of hawkwind is irrelevant in my opinion and possibly display's some ignorance on her behalf - i wonder if she ever heard of horace rumpole!


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Electro wrote:Regarding the case between a church and Adidas that was cited, as I understand it, the church appealed and won the appeal. Maybe I missed something but if that is the case, it may hint to the judge suggesting that even minor use of the mark suggests in the favour of the opposer


You could be right. I saw the bit about cancelling the church's mark and lost the will to live during the last paragraph.

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:45 pm 
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A judge in a music copyright case should have a better knowledge. Hawkwind are one of the seminal bands in their genre, and oft cited as an influence by many very well known artists. They are an original, not one of the hordes of derivatives. Seems US legal people are as out of touch as some of our UK judges

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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:18 pm 
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I had never heard of Béla V.J. Bartók until last week despite listening to nearly every other twentieth-century classical composer over the last 40 years; turns out Bartók, along with Liszt (who I am quite familiar with), is one of Hungary's greatest composers and considered one of the most salient in his genre during the 1900s.

Unless someone is a true expert possessing a comprehensive knowledge, one person's scope of awareness should hardly establish a fair contradictory point in the matter at hand.

I suspect the Judge may have been merely pointing to a need for more substantiating evidence from the opposer with which to support their claim of Hawkwind's alleged renown.


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:03 pm 
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yeah - but for a judge in a court of law to come out with that bilge is mind-boggling - she's getting well paid to know these thing's - legal trickery methinks - one wonder's how old she is and under whose counsel she was tutilaged? - the game is afoot watson!


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Im inclined to cynicism as much as anyone (God knows!), I only meant to offer insight into the way some legal-minds operate ~ I had counsel that used to do that sort of thing with me whilst we worked to build my case ! At first, I thought:
"Crikey ! Is she really on my team here ??"

...then I realised, she's just doing her job - letting me know what to expect in any court hearing.
Valuable tip !

* listening right now to " Live at Lewisham Odeon, 18th December 1980 ", :cool:


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 Post subject: Re: TTAB sets HAWKWIND Hearing for April 24 at Silicon Valle
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:00 pm 
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Well I've never heard of that judge.... so there!!


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