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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:10 pm 
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They dropped that bomb on ISIS stronghold ~ none of U.S. business?
who is going to defeat daesh if not the U.S. ? You don't actually believe that Islamic terrorism is a mythical enemy created as false propaganda, do you Brown Dawn ?
Come on .


@Smugdruggler :

absolutely no doubt the oligarchic corporate interests still exist ~ but they are not exclusively the product of the United States ~ lets be realistic here ~ it belongs as much to every country in the western hemisphere as much as any.

If the 'establishment press' in the U.S. is any clear indication, they are, and have been, at extreme odds with their president , which is one of the reasons I hold out hope that, whatever Trump's virtues and shortcomings may be, he may actually have anti-elitist positions.
To some, this might seem like lunacy given the fact that Trump is a billionaire ~ I am nonetheless considering some unique points :
he is a self-made billionaire from business in real estate. That does not automatically make him an "establishment guy", though I recognise that it doesn't mean he is not, either. But the fact is 'Joe the Grocer' could make a billion in real estate if he knew the ropes, anyone can.

Here's a snip from Associated Press :
Spokesman for DPRK
"Trump is always making provocations with his aggressive words," Han said. "It's not the DPRK but the U.S. and Trump that makes trouble." North Korea's official name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

He added: "We will go to war if they choose.
"

This is the kind of propaganda I refer to.
True ~ Trumps tweets are provocative.
BUT : Which country started the provocations?

One clear answer . NORTH KOREA.


Edit :
some research in figuring out what a swell guy Kim Jung-un is might produce convincing evidence there's a reason hes widely believed to be a mass-murderer

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:43 pm 
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enola gay on the way? - guantanamo here i come! - i'd say mexico will be happy when he build's the wall - trying to defend the indefensible is the tail wagging the dog i feel - as the fleet advances - sickening


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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:05 am 
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.
Trump is not Truman.

Truman made a grave mistake in targeting civilians. But it wasn't unprovoked. I don't know what history books you read, Brown Dawn, but the Japanese Imperial Air Force attacked Pearl Harbour without provocation. And Truman called on Japan for surrender, explaining the consequences. Japan's ruler chose to call Truman's bluff. But it wasn't a bluff. Japan was again urged to cease hostilities at once. Even after Hiroshima was annihilated, when again, Truman called for Japan's surrender, they did not believe the U.S. had a second bomb of such magnitude. Again, the Japanese government decided it was a bluff the second time . Sadly, it was a credible threat.

I think that the decision to swap 160,000 Japanese civilian lives for what surely would have been millions of Japanese AND American troops' lives was a grim choice to have to make.

But again, Trump is not Truman.

If you want the United States to be your enemy for all-time to come, regardless of who manages to get elected, then isn't that turning your back on a country which has a democratic government, and whose citizens are mostly decent people, and despite the political challenges in dealing with out-of-control private wealth and it's effects on the people of every nation - not just Americans - still spends astronomical resources fighting against those who would seek to destroy your free society, imperfect though it may be ?

Edit:

Trump has not threatened to use nukes, and no one believes he will,
unless DPRK uses one first, then perhaps.

But Kim Jung un HAS repeatedly threatened to use them ~ in preemptive capacity.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:55 am 
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Brown Dawn wrote:i think trump is a terrorist - certainly a warmonger - testing his big missiles in afghanistan - none of his business - russia tried that stuff too against them and failed - the american propaganda machine seem's to be brainwashing people even with half a mind as to their imperialistic tendencies and agenda's - 'unprovoked attack's' - a little naive i feel - let's be honest - why?!


Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:08 am 
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vikmarlo wrote:They dropped that bomb on ISIS stronghold ~ none of U.S. business?
who is going to defeat daesh if not the U.S. ? You don't actually believe that Islamic terrorism is a mythical enemy created as false propaganda, do you Brown Dawn ?
Come on.


There is certainly an element of propaganda, in that we are expected to accept that terrorism is more of a threat to most people in the west than in fact it is. The reality is most victims of terror on a global scale are muslim.

And if western leaders were serious about stopping terrorism, they'd actually be changing some of the conditions that perpetuate it. US foreign policy has resulted in a huge growth in terror. Take the Iraq invasion of 2003 for example. That country, for all its problems, was not previously a hotbed of islamic radicalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:20 am 
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Etherealise wrote:
vikmarlo wrote:They dropped that bomb on ISIS stronghold ~ none of U.S. business?
who is going to defeat daesh if not the U.S. ? You don't actually believe that Islamic terrorism is a mythical enemy created as false propaganda, do you Brown Dawn ?
Come on.


There is certainly an element of propaganda, in that we are expected to accept that terrorism is more of a threat to most people in the west than in fact it is. The reality is most victims of terror on a global scale are muslim.

And if western leaders were serious about stopping terrorism, they'd actually be changing some of the conditions that perpetuate it. US foreign policy has resulted in a huge growth in terror. Take the Iraq invasion of 2003 for example. That country, for all its problems, was not previously a hotbed of islamic radicalism.



Are we not to care about Muslims then, or any victims of terror - just because it is mostly not us westerners who are their victims?

I disagree with the idea that if somehow the imperial western powers would start 'behaving themselves' , that this would make ISIS, al-Qeuda, and their ilk just go away and everything would be fine.
If you study the ideology of radical Islam, the history, and the manifesto of current jihad, you will quickly realise the only way the terrorists will stop is when you and I pack our bags and move to Mars, and allow them control of the world under sharia law.

To your previous post, and the idea that Trump is a war monger, well,
maybe so ~ but there's little chance of compiling evidence to back your assertion, given the fact that Trump has been in office not even 3 months and has never been in politics before !

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:33 am 
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Just a quick aside to thicken the plot (god knows it needs no further thickening at this point ) but I just read some very respected constitutional law experts are already predicting Trump's impeachment.
It might have to do that he did not consult congress before the missle strike on Syrian air base, as I mentioned previously.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:39 am 
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vikmarlo wrote:
Are we not to care about Muslims then, or any victims of terror - just because it is mostly not us westerners who are their victims?


I didn't say that. I was making the point that generally it's only western victims of terror that are noticed by us, and that they are not the majority in numbers. If we care about victims of terrorism the best thing we can do, as Chomsky put it, is "stop participating in it".

vikmarlo wrote:I disagree with the idea that if somehow the imperial western powers would start 'behaving themselves' , that this would make ISIS, al-Qeuda, and their ilk just go away and everything would be fine.


I certainly wasn't claiming that. Simply that the rise of terror hasn't happened in a vacuum.

vikmarlo wrote:If you study the ideology of radical Islam, the history, and the manifesto of current jihad, you will quickly realise the only way the terrorists will stop is when you and I pack our bags and move to Mars, and allow them control of the world under sharia law.


I disagree. Radical Islam (which is not the majority of Islam either) is not the main issue. It's politics. Yes Radical Islam is dangerous but it wouldn't have all the recruits it does without legitimate political grievances with which to suck them in.

vikmarlo wrote:To your previous post, and the idea that Trump is a war monger, well,
maybe so ~ but there's little chance of compiling evidence to back your assertion, given the fact that Trump has been in office not even 3 months and has never been in politics before !


I would think that boosting military spending and the (illegal) bombing of Syria is a pretty good indication. Having said that Clinton apparently had more donations to her campaign from arms manufacturers. Trump seemed like he might be less of a warmonger before taking office but so far he's acting a lot like just another politician.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:47 am 
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Cheers for the clarification, Etherealise.

I'm interested to know what you feel is an ongoing example of the West's (any Western government) participation in terrorism (?)

I agree that it is posible for changes in foreign policy of western governments (as mastered by oligarchic influence) to reduce the political fuel that increases recruitment to radical terrorism.

But the real situation has passed the point of "we can prevent this ".

the absolute worst elements of radical Islam want Israel wiped off the map. With nuclear weapons in Pakistan there is a very real and close danger of that happening.
It will absolutely happen if we do nothing about stopping those who are desperately trying to make it happen.
It might happen anyway ~ like I said it's late in the game for reparations to appease those who live only to die and take as many with them as possible.

To your last point, boosting military spending is an arguable one to assert war mongering (that is your opinion, which I respect and do not necessarily disagree with - my jury is still out) , simply because it is what all nations tend to do when their adversaries play that card.

The bombing of Syria ~ unconstitutional (?) Yes, in my view it was. Violation of international law (?) remains to be seen , and on what grounds: rules tend to get blurry in war.

But again, an arguable point since it was a proper response to a DEFINITELY illegal, not to mention immoral and heinous chemical attack,
and it was a precision miltary-target strike, an isolated (so far) action that Trump's administration has claimef is not a shift in policy.

from the standpoint of whether it was a good idea in terms of U.S. interests to get involved in this way, that is on shakey ground ~ that much I recognise.

I already tossed a pebble in the pond for the thought that those who wish Trump out of the White House could easily set him up for a fall.

I just hope and pray as I know we all do that tensions in the world will start to DE-escalate, and quickly. We certainly cannot begin to initiate the kind of change you mentioned whilst in the midst of a global war.

God help us all.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:54 am 
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Just spotted this ~ I'm reminded there is indeed evidence to support your assertions, Brown Dawn and Etherealise.

To make that argument, perhaps the strongest piece of hard evidence, in addition to those mentioned, is the deep cuts Trump has made to State Department foreign aid, which includes funding for diplomacy, humanitarian aid, and peace-keeping efforts.

There was in fact a letter to president Trump signed by over 100 U.S. generals in the military urging Trump not to de-fund the State Department' aid to foreign nations, as it has direct impact on national security.

This article features one Senator's taking up of this call to re-instate diplomacy-funding and humanitarian foreign aid.


Link is Associated Press :

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... 4-16-51-41

It may simply be that Trump doesn't understand the national security interests that are directly tied to State Dept. funding and he is just trying to cut corners to eliminate what he sees as "waste".

But from any other angle, it doesn't look good !
.
The United States is the world's largest provider of humanitarian assistance and in 2016 gave roughly $2.8 billion in food aid, but the Trump administration has thrown such funding into doubt. At the same time, Trump wants to boost military spending.

.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:43 am 
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i think the definition of terrorism is flexible/massageable to say the least and government's - particularly western one's like the US/UK/ireland - are guilty of using it for imperialistic purposes - one ongoing example of terrorism would be the complicit involvement of the irish government to allow american murderer's land in shannon airport to ship certain innocent people to guantanamo bay to torture them - and when joe public protested he got locked up and got a criminal record for his troubles - i abhor what happened in pearl harbour and what daesh are doing - i think any right minded person would - i still feel the UK/US insistence on trying to police the world (white man's burden) creates a rife breeding ground for extremist reaction (yes reaction) - one of my best friend's is american Vik - a real solid honest citizen as i believe most american's are and I would like to believe I have no enemies! - to the best of my knowledge, trump is not 'a self made billionaire' - his father played a big part in his inheritance - indeed let's hope for a de-escalation in tension and more round the table discussions happen! - the sun it shines today! - hugs!


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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:18 am 
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Cheers, Brown Dawn, for expounding on your views ~ I definitely don't know enough about GTMO, tho a quick glance just now has caught my attention with condemnation from Amnesty International, that's some heavy stuff. Torture? I don't care if it is terrorists there or not, no one has the right to torture another human being ~ period. Thats messed up !
I've been against capital punishment most of my life, ever since I found out what happens to those who take a life and there are some States in the U.S. (not Michigan where I lived) where they have it & the way they administer the chemicals for lethal injection, it paralyses the voice so they can't scream, but they don't die for sometimes up to six hours, during which time their body convulsed and showed signs of agony. It's pretty sick stuff ~ and all the newspapers would print was how happy the murder victims family was that the killer was tortured to death, and how that made them feel better.
But now the killer is dead and the victims family still suffers. Now they are the torturers and the tortured. Sad

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:48 am 
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vikmarlo wrote:Cheers for the clarification, Etherealise.

I'm interested to know what you feel is an ongoing example of the West's (any Western government) participation in terrorism (?)

I agree that it is posible for changes in foreign policy of western governments (as mastered by oligarchic influence) to reduce the political fuel that increases recruitment to radical terrorism.

But the real situation has passed the point of "we can prevent this ".


I would say the long running and underreported drone programs of the US military would be one ongoing example. Obama greatly expanded these programs and I would doubt that they will be scaled back under Trump, who has previously boasted of being "the most militaristic guy in the room".

Glen Greenwald has written about drone strikes, which we are told target militants, that this effectively means any male of military age in a given area is considered a potential combatant. In short we don't know who the people are being killed. All we know is less the 4% were members of Al-Qaeda: https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/s ... da-members

He also notes that the presence of drones terrorises populations and argues that terrorism as per the standard definitions may well apply to drone warfare: https://theintercept.com/2014/11/18/med ... militants/

Chomsky has also described these drone programs as "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times." Some may disagree, but as he says, terrorism as discussed in the mainstream media seems to include what they do to us, not what we do to them.*

You may be right about things going past a point where they can be prevented. But ongoing intervention in the middle east and bombing isn't going to help.

*and by we here I mean US/allied forces as directed by their governments.

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:05 am 
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vikmarlo wrote:I just hope and pray as I know we all do that tensions in the world will start to DE-escalate, and quickly. We certainly cannot begin to initiate the kind of change you mentioned whilst in the midst of a global war.

God help us all.


I think everyone can agree on the need to de-escalate tensions. It's how that should be done that's the question. Not saying I know how, but whatever is going on it's not working...

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 Post subject: Re: Systematic Takedown Of A Tyrant : Timeline
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:16 am 
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right it definitely isn't working, and the unthinkable aspect is that it's all too terrifyingly like brats in a sandbox, only these aren't plastic missiles ~ I keep waiting for an adult to step in and break it up.


Edit:
^
^
I missed your first new post, two back.

Yes I have to agree the drones are a bit much even for me to take, and I tend to support a hard line against terrorists ~ sans torture, indiscriminate targeting, and racial profiling, among some other tricky issues. But basically I agree that Obama's expansion of the drone program overstepped not one but several red lines for me. I know everyone here knows which ones I mean. It set an extremely dangerous precedent. Going back to the issue of GTMO and torture for a moment, I was shocked to discover this, aparently it's been going on and I was unaware* ~ I thought it had stopped (the prison itself) and I know there was debate** in the Senate; John McCain is a war vet and victim of torture himself ~ it seems incomprehensible to me ~ but what's happened is that in the fight against terror, they're retrogressing to the level of the terrorists themselves. I'm not saying they're quite there yet, but on that dark path and it's not good.
It's like capital punishment, kill the killer when they already have the killer in captivity. Wrong. WRONG WRONG.
even in war - you never kill the enemy when they surrender. But if they cannot be taken alive,
some would rather die than surrender. There is nothing you can do [for] an enemy like that.
Fortunately, public opinion still means something ~ at least I pray it does.

* I had been aware that terrorists were being held as military prisoners and that there had been charges of abuse in the past; what I was unaware of is torture being conducted as official proceedure in interrogation.

** my impression had been that the Senate debate was whether or not to close GTMO, and where to incarcerate enemy combatants, and that it had been resolved to close the prison.

what a disconsolation

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