Hawkwindforum

Apologies if this has been done to death..

How live is Space Ritual? I know there were overdubs done - but was it just the odd bum note, were there substantial parts added, or were the live tracks just used as the basis of the tracks (like on a few tunes on HOTMG) with a lot done in the studio?

I've got Space Ritual 2 on vinyl but haven't played it for years (no turntable) which I suppose would be a good comparison as i *think* those are pretty straight live tapes.

Anyway.. all thoughts welcome - even if its just to point me to a 22 page thread about it from a few years back!

Not only Space Ritual 2, but there's a few tracks untouched on the anthology albums/weird tapes. You shouldn't do that, for example was edited. I think there were a few very subtle overdubs to Space is deep, and you can hear the original vocals for down through the night kick in a few bars early. I think I read Upside Down didn't originally have vocals

Space Ritual 2 does give a truer flavour no doubt, but Space Ritual was judiciously edited. The re-issue from EMI has some alternate takes too.

Lost Johnny wrote:Space Ritual 2 does give a truer flavour no doubt, but Space Ritual was judiciously edited. The re-issue from EMI has some alternate takes too.

Do you think it is live with a few edits.. or was it pretty major reworking - so its a live/studio hybrid?

Jake wrote:

Lost Johnny wrote:Space Ritual 2 does give a truer flavour no doubt, but Space Ritual was judiciously edited. The re-issue from EMI has some alternate takes too.

Do you think it is live with a few edits.. or was it pretty major reworking - so its a live/studio hybrid?

The former definitely-- unlike "Silver Machine" which had Lemmy's voice dubbed over Robert Calvert's.

You have to remember that it was extremely common in the 70s in particular to do overdubs of live material. There are a few overdubs and some edits, but the impression I get is that the album is mostly the authentic product. In interviews for example recently, Lemmy has said that Space Ritual is exactly how they sounded live at the time. I don't think the sound is massively different between Volume 2 and the original. Nik Turner's Saxophone is a bit lower in the mix, and it's a bit more polished due to edits and the occasional vocal overdub, but other than that, I personally think that's it.

I'd love to hear the origjnals of the Edmonton sundown gigs to hear just how much overdubbing was done to the Hall of the mountain grill live tracks. It was implied in a recent intervew with the EMI chap that only the basic track was used, which I guess implies drums and bass only.

Dell1972 wrote:You have to remember that it was extremely common in the 70s in particular to do overdubs of live material.

indeed - to the point where many classic "live" albums are effectively studio albums with a few "live" touches.. which I suppose is what led me to my question.

There was some discussion a few years ago where people were questioning how much of this was
actually live, mainly because of the quality of the playing in comparison to other recordings from this peroid.
There is an audience recording of the Brixton sundown gig and if you compare the two they are almost identical, apart from the already mentioned overdubbed vocal on upside down and the edits.

I don't want this to be true, but I always have my suspicions about Lemmy's bass solo on Orgone Accumulor, seeing as it's so well constructed. It's nothing like that section on Space Ritual Volume 2. As I said, I don't want it to be an overdub though, I love the idea of that being played live as it sounds so good. I think in general it's just the occasional edit, the occasional vocal overdub and the odd extra tweak.

The bridging section of echoing guitar swoops between Time We Left and Master of the Universe is I'm pretty certain an addition as well. The full version of Time We Left as heard on SR2 and the most recent reissue of Space Ritual doesn't fade into that.

I'd love it if they could sort out the tape fault they had on the recorded Sunderland gig and release that. That would probably give us a good source of comparison.

I get confused which HW tracks are live and which are not, as they even mix them up on albums. I thougt you better belive it was a studio track until Blood came out. I'm not sure it matters too much.

I don't mind the editing, especially shortening tracks, which (I know this heresy!) are often a bit too long often, except for Calvert's poems. It is such same that some which I have on almost unlistenable bootlegs, like the early "Clone" (Spirit of the Age" and others were never recorded properly. The tow on Gagarin just about make the album worth buying and are wonderfully manic, but could have done with better recording. Someone asked why they not got recorded in the studio. In many ways they were the most unique aspect of HW's act. the answer might be with Calvert's instability.

I spotted this comment, posted a few days ago: "Lemmy's bass seems to be out of tune for most of the album."
Personally, I wouldn't know, but it struck me as interesting.

(source: first paragraph)

He was really a guitar player in those days! Whether or not he has actually learned how to play the bass or not remains a question.