I'm In a minority

psygazebo · **Joined:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:55 am **Posts:** 53

Without wanting to join in with this debate - i think onwards is excellent - at quite volume or deafening it packs a psychedilc punch - we could go through listening to music worrying about other peoples artistic desisions(the bands in this case) or we could chose, with freedom, to listen and choose what we do and dont buy etc..

I listen with my ears and not with a technical soeftware application - if you want to slag something off feel free - but come on, lets celibrate Hawkwinds creativeness and if you dont like it, well, dont buy the next one... now, please, enough!

smugdruggler · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 3:01 pm

Would you pay £35.95 for it - I know I wouldn't having listened to it (with my ears).

Sweep · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 3:11 pm

psygazebo wrote:I listen with my ears and not with a technical software application - if you want to slag something off feel free - but come on, lets celibrate Hawkwinds creativeness and if you dont like it, well, dont buy the next one... now, please, enough!

Point taken. But personally I listen with my ears as well, and I was disturbed by over-use of compression long before I knew what it was. I think the same would be true for Jamun, who's demonstrated what we're hearing. I think you're doing him an injustice if you suggest he's critical of the album on the basis of how it looks on screen. He's simply tracing the problem to its source and ensuring the discussion is based on demonstrable evidence and not on subjective assertions.

I agree entirely with you about not buying the next one. I didn't buy this one (yet, at least) because of this. I'd much rather `celebrate Hawkwind's creativeness' by buying their albums, though. If it sounds ok to you, then great - I'm glad some people are buying this album and enjoying it. But there's no question that there's an issue with the recording. People will make different choices about how they deal with that, but the issue clearly exists.

To be honest, the way things are developing I think we're going to have a strong reaction against overly compressed masters in a few years time. Albums originally recorded before this fashion started will be remastered and re-released. Over-compressed albums are going to sound very old-fashioned before too long. The indications are already there.

jamun · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 5:57 pm

I think I have commented before that Onward is a great album. If not, its a GREAT ALBUM.
But it doesnt sound great. It sounds like shit IMO. Within seconds of listening to the CD I could tell it was compressed, so to proof it I posted these waveforms and DR measurements. What annoys me, is that this compression wasnt done for creative reasons, if so why do it to the entire album? It was done to make the record sound louder. This as I have said, works on iPods, iPhones and lo fi equipment, but on audiophile equipment it sounds like crap. I fully understand if Hawkwind want to make a record for the iPod generation, good luck to them. But I had always thought that they where into sound quality, eg Leviation recorded on the first digital EMI recorder etc and especially with Niall having a degree, or what ever, in sound recording and music production.

Any way why bother? I dont believe it would have sold more, if it hadnt been "cooked".
Cant understand myself why bands dont strive for perfection, what with cover art, songs AND sound quality.

vikmarlo · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:16 am **Posts:** 2011

The CD sounds fine to me. With bias, I can understand other's disappointment - I just
don't happen to share it. It would be interesting to hear what Atomehenge might do,
starting from the original masters. obviously some projects sound better when squeezed,
others with more range. It would be nice to have two versions of Onward so the fans can
make the comparison. perhaps we someday will:)

jamun · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 8:14 pm

vikmarlo wrote:The CD sounds fine to me. With bias, I can understand other's disappointment - I just
don't happen to share it. It would be interesting to hear what Atomehenge might do,
starting from the original masters. obviously some projects sound better when squeezed,
others with more range. It would be nice to have two versions of Onward so the fans can
make the comparison. perhaps we someday will:)

Just out of interest whats your hifi? No disrespect but if the CD sounds fine to you, I suggest you are suffering from "Equipment Deficiency".

vikmarlo · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:16 am **Posts:** 2011

its just a Bose Wave Music System (formerly called the Wave II).
not exactly audiophile, at least not by the standard you are
accustomed to, though still sharp enough to appreciate the diff.
between standard 24-bit or 28-bit mastered and UHR/GAIN2 hybrid
CD's. the system is in top performance order, its just that I happen
to like some music on the rough side and Onward, for me, sounds
good the way I'm hearing it. no accounting for taste !

I have to agree with you though, its not audiophile quality.

Sweep · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 9:20 pm

It might be worth mentioning that my equipment isn't very hi-fi. So although overly compressed recordings will sound inferior on good equipment, these recent Hawkwind releases are also sounding poor to me on my more basic stuff.

I'm unable to comment on how it might sound on an Ipod or whatever. But if the intention is to play to that market, surely only the MP3 version needs the compression?

Also, there were mix issues with Knights and BOTE, and the original post in this topic suggested there are similar mix issues with this album. (Maybe related to the compression, as that post suggested?) With BOTE that seemed to depend on what the CD was played on, but there's no doubt the problem was quite marked in several cases. I'm really not sure if that is a compression issue. I never use compression, though I suppose I could experiment with it to see just how shitty it can cause a mix to sound. But I wonder if the poor mixes are a compression issue and therefore happen post-production, or whether they're there from the start?

jamun · **Posted:** Sat May 19, 2012 9:47 pm

vikmarlo wrote:its just a Bose Wave Music System (formerly called the Wave II).
not exactly audiophile, at least not by the standard you are
accustomed to, though still sharp enough to appreciate the diff.
between standard 24-bit or 28-bit mastered and UHR/GAIN2 hybrid
CD's. the system is in top performance order, its just that I happen
to like some music on the rough side and Onward, for me, sounds
good the way I'm hearing it. no accounting for taste !
I have to agree with you though, its not audiophile quality.

Nothing wrong with a bit of Bose IMO. I suggest you are not critically listening or dont know what to listen for. Which is strange, because the loudness is so in your face LOUD IMO. Oh well, each to there own.

vikmarlo · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:16 am **Posts:** 2011

jamun wrote:Nothing wrong with a bit of Bose IMO. I suggest you are not critically listening or dont know what to listen for. Which is strange, because the loudness is so in your face LOUD IMO. Oh well, each to there own.

I admit I am not critically listening! there are plenty of records, including some by hawkwind that I
would not like with this much compression. perhaps someday it will grow to annoy me, but there is
no real rhyme or reason as to why I like some recordings less than hi-def, or whatever term you might
want to use to describe what you consider Onward not to be. I was recently in a discussion with someone
about this and my friend and I both agreed it has to do with the emotional response to certain recordings
and the way they're produced. I might well be inclined to prefer a different mix of Onward if I were to hear
one, even if it only had less compression. but the test for me would have to be actually hearing one. I tend
not to compare specific recordings with others, as most I'm sure would and logically so, only for the reason
that the comparison itself can influence me to overlook what I feel to be the most important thing in listening,
which is the emotional response.

vikmarlo · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:16 am **Posts:** 2011

Sweep wrote:It might be worth mentioning that my equipment isn't very hi-fi. So although overly compressed recordings will sound inferior on good equipment, these recent Hawkwind releases are also sounding poor to me on my more basic stuff.

I'm unable to comment on how it might sound on an Ipod or whatever. But if the intention is to play to that market, surely only the MP3 version needs the compression?

Also, there were mix issues with Knights and BOTE, and the original post in this topic suggested there are similar mix issues with this album. (Maybe related to the compression, as that post suggested?) With BOTE that seemed to depend on what the CD was played on, but there's no doubt the problem was quite marked in several cases. I'm really not sure if that is a compression issue. I never use compression, though I suppose I could experiment with it to see just how shitty it can cause a mix to sound. But I wonder if the poor mixes are a compression issue and therefore happen post-production, or whether they're there from the start?

these are excellent points Sweep, and though I'm happy with this record I'm still curious as to what an alternate mix
and/or post-production treatments to it might sound like, including a wide-range audiophile version. . I realise of
course one would need access to the original master to restore whatever has been lost via compression. there is a
company in the States that does this using the GAIN2 proprietary mastering system. their catalog is limited
however, as the process does not necessarily enhance every work, that would depend on the limitations of the first-
genereation master.

Brown Dawn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:38 pm **Posts:** 769

Still haven't heard the new album yet- I know what my ears tell me as regards good production e.g Levitation- Being the eejit that I am I must ask- what is 'compression' anyway? - I was in the back of the queue when it came to computer technology

vikmarlo · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:16 am **Posts:** 2011

Brown Dawn wrote:Still haven't heard the new album yet- I know what my ears tell me as regards good production e.g Levitation- Being the eejit that I am I must ask- what is 'compression' anyway? - I was in the back of the queue when it came to computer technology

there are no eejits on this forum !!! :lol:

just curious minds hungry for knowledge :wink:

theres two kinds of audio compression. DRC or Dynamic Range Compression
narrows an audio signal's DNR, thats the ratio between the largest and smallest possible
values of a changeable signal. the effect is reducing the volume of loud sounds and
amplifying quiet sounds.

Audio Data Compression on the other hand, refers to file data compression,
bit-rate reduction by encoding information using fewer bits than the original representation,
such as with mp3 but also can refer to a lossless compression format which is achieved without
sacrificing some sound that may or may not be audible to an individual listener.

Ozhawk · **Posted:** Sun May 20, 2012 7:43 am

It has proved an interesting thread and I think highlights how each of us listen to our music.

I've always liked hearing the nuances in recordings hence why I love what Atomhenge did. Their work on the past albums brought out sounds not audioble on original releases and that what I like. Being able to penetrate and seperate the tracks of a recording and concentrate on that little sound in the background at 1:54 that makes you think mmmm thats interesting. Others I think listen in a different way - hearing the recording as a whole and not a compilation of different tracks each demanding individual listens on subsequent plays.

The last release i was as critical of was 'Yule Ritual'. Great show that was just badly recorded/produced with a top heavy bass sound that overshadowed the other delicate sounds/rythms. On the back of that I still havnt bought Knights In Space.

I guess I do have the option not to buy albums like "Onward" because the audio is so poor as to offend my ears but its not something I want to do. At this stage though I hear no difference to listening to the CD on Youtube than on my CD player.

I raised this thread as I think the band should know that a few of us are struggling with the current quality of audio production.

Dell1972 · **Joined:** Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:07 pm **Posts:** 867

My first listen to the album I found it painfully in your face, but I have aclimatised to it somewhat now. My take on it is it's perhaps nothing to do with the band. From what I can see, plastichead seem to be effectively a metal label. It's possible the mastering was handled entirely by them, and they just like to have a bit of a Spinal Tap moment when setting the levels. Anyone else got any other Plastichead/Eastworld albums that aren't by Hawkwind? Yuri Gagarin/Text Of Festival after all can't really be used as comparison as they sounded shite in the first place.

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