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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:28 pm 
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i remember a few elections ago here someone said to me 'yeah but nothings going to change - it's the same civil servants anyway' - we had a huge influx of. Polish people here a while ago now - the were willing to work for the minimum wage which at the time the irish weren't willing to - my experience with them for the most part was positive but obviously things did change after a while and i did hear and witness things that i didn't like - now (bar the married ones) they are gone!


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:45 am 
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Location: Kent, UK, in an unfashionable spiral arm of the galaxy
I've been interested in what people say above. It's especially interesting because you are all people I've interacted with for several years, and I know many of your views and respect you all.

Immigration is a difficult issue to discuss without being labelled a bigot. there are certainly issues to be addressed, but many of these are caused by Britain's own social agenda.

My neighbour (single mother, 6 kids, all in care, never worked, serially boasting of cheating the DSS of over 30 grand a year in benefits) was the first to moan that "they're over here taking our jobs". When it was pointed out that she could have been cleaning cars for a living too, she just laughed and got a taxi to the pub. I had to go for a lie down to relax my irony gland.

This kind of mentality, as far as I can remember, dates back primarily to the 80s - Thatcher's Britain. This is when the people went out of politics and cash became king. Greed is good, buy your council house, sell off state industry, never mind that whole communities depend on them and it'll cost more in benefits than to keep them running at a loss - close down non-profit making industries. Banking and service industries are the future....

Our social cohesion has evaporated, and social values have declined. The Tories, UKIP, BNP and others (Labour and the Lib Dems aren't far from this group) offer a blinkered, blame-only vision of social justice. My personal view is this won't work - it's treating the symptoms of the illness, not the cause. Blaming and alienating a minority for the wider ills of society is too familiar in history.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:46 pm 
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Jimski, yes, I recognise all of that - including people who don't want to work and take responsibility for their lives and like to use immigration as an excuse. It isn't just the Daily Mail that talks about these people - they really do exist.

At the same time there really are very many people in Britain who've lost their jobs because of uncontrolled immigration. I've worked with these people, and I'm one of them, and I've met many others. It's nothing to do with the immigrants being any better - in fact that's absurd when I think back to how things went where I worked.

I was in a company that got rid of all its full time workers and replaced them with agency workers. We already had some agency workers, but virtually all the new ones were East Europeans. The agency was renting properties to them, so it was in their interests to find work for these people and not for local people. I kept my job because I was part-time, but we went from being a profit-making part of the company to being a massive loss-maker because the East Europeans were, to put it bluntly, dreadful, and they outnumbered us four or five to one so what we could do in the way of damage limitation was limited. Our customers steadily went elsewhere, and in the end all of us were made redundant. So that's a lot of British workers losing their jobs because of East Europeans.

Elsewhere I've seen similar patterns, with job agencies preferring East Europeans for their own reasons and local workers being pushed out. We've also had cases where British people have been expected to speak Polish in their own country. This isn't a myth - I can think of a couple of examples readily, and there are certainly others.

I agree entirely that the rot started with Thatcher. Even the predominance of agency workers started then.

Regarding the blinkered view, I'd agree everyone seems to have one. Regarding immigration I think UKIP have done a good job of making immigration a debated political issue when the other parties were determined to be blinkered, but that doesn't mean UKIP aren't blinkered in other ways. I think there's hope they may gain a new and more positive direction from the influx of new people, with the bigoted retired colonel types being displaced and, hopefully, the Thatcherites as well. With the development of the UKIP LGBT section and so forth I think there's reason to hope for that and it isn't a vain wish.

But naturally every party, every group of people has its blind spots, and adjustment needs to be made continually. To me, that's in the very nature of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:00 am 
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some good points in both of the above posts - its hard to generalise i guess - getting some kind of balance on it would help but human nature is complex - my own son is finishing secondary school this year and will be on the college/job scene - the former being his preference but very expensive and the latter still non - existant - as with many keen young people here unfortunately emigration is an tion - but usually keen people travel well


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 1:54 pm 
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Location: Landosenfina...World without End.
It's to do with the way humans fundamentally are. We're creatures blessed with higher brain functions that allow us to dream, aspire, and work towards our aspirations. We also like bright shiny comfortable things and are very selfish. Put all those together with the concept of money and you have a society whose individuals spend all their time working towards the acquisition of money and ultimately possessions. We all want large televisions, and fast computers, and streaming entertainment, and nice cars, and holdays, and tablets and stereos and Xboxes and alcohol and drugs and...

The list is endless, and the sad thing is that human aspiration and desire is endless. You can't sate it. When you get a shiny new possession, you're happy for a while and then it's not enough and you strive for the next thing. This starts at an early age too - look at kids on Christmas Day. Spend all year writing down lists of what presents they want, and then by Boxing Day the majority of them are discarded and forgotten about.

And how much does all this stuff cost? And where does the money come from? Well those of us with jobs spend a large proportion of our wages on shiny lovely things, but then we have a Welfare State that allows other people (like Jimski's neighbour) to sit on their arses raking in the money and buying the same stuff as we do. And quite frankly you can't blame them for doing it. Humans are also very good at finding the quickest and easiest way to make a buck, and the Welfare State is one of the quickest and easiest.

People complain about the local bus services, the NHS, the cost of living. Jesus! Cost of living? When we spend £50 a month on Sky channels, £20 a month on Broadband, and our houses are full of electrical equipment that's worth a fortune? We couldl sort out the NHS in a year, if we all chose to pay a little bit more tax, but we won't because that would stop us moving up to the next size TV or the next Playstation, or the next bunch of Blu-Ray movies that we absolutely MUST have. And that's why every time an Election comes along and every party promises tax cuts, and the party that promises the most gets in, because all humans want is Money and Things. We say we want justice for all, and a decent wage, and immigration sorted out, and the NHS back on it's feet, but we don't. We just want STUFF. More Stuff. Go along to the zoo and watch the chimps interacting. The big ones beat up the small ones and steal their bananas because they Want them. That's us. 8 million years of evolution and nothing's changed.

Man does not think. He only thinks he does.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:04 pm 
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There are a lot of half truths in there. But thankfully that cynic's view doesn't extend to everybody. There are a lot things decent people don't do to get what they might have if they were better off.

Most of us would like a few more things, but we don't steal or embezzle to get them.

Thankfully many people have more self-respect than to sit on the dole and just take and play the system, if we can manage to get work of some kind.

Many of us are honest, even when that just means we're attacked by dishonest people from every side.

It's true I often wonder how we evolved - but then I remember how long it took. There's a lot of dead weight trying to drag us down, but there are still decent people with their thoughts on what matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Location: Landosenfina...World without End.
Sweep wrote:...thankfully that cynic's view doesn't extend to everybody.


Most of our opinions are informed by the experiences we have through life, especially in our interactions with other people. We don't just pull them our of our asses fully-formed. Mine have generally evolved through having lived for 52 years in Britain through the 70s and 80s, two decades in this country that seemed to contain the worst of human selfishness, racism and bigotry. I grew up during the Recessions of the 70s, then worked in London during the 80s and saw first-hand the results of Thatcher's Britain, when greed became good, unemployment was at it's highest for decades, and we were witnessing the growth of the Benefit Culture. The 70s saw us at our poorest and the 80s at our richest, and yet the way we treated ourselves was not much different in both decades.

I do see the occasional good in human nature, with such events as Band Aid, Live Aid, and people contributing to Children in Need and the various Relief funds, but to me they are far outweighed by the way that 99% of the population ignores the plight of starving and dying children the world over, and the endless wars that seem to plague so many countries in the world, preferring to reach for the remote and switch channel.

You may not agree with my viewpoint and God forbid we should all be the same, but you could always use my name and actually direct your comments towards me, like you know, we were on a discussion forum or something. I find it very dismissive to be referred to as "that cynic".
:(


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Sorry for the way my comment read. `that' referred to the view, not to you. I can see, now, how it could come across, but that was never my intention. I thought of my entire post as a direct response to you.

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Owen Paterson: "I didn't move the goalposts. The badgers moved the goalposts." But the badgers never thought it was a fair game in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:47 am 
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Location: Landosenfina...World without End.
I'm saying no more other than this is interesting:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-nigel-farage ... 1130-90532


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Location: Lost beyond the Black Hole's apparent horizon - Yorkshire
The Euro election is a one issue gig, the next general election leaves me with a problem. No current party puts the welfare, opinions and wishes of ordinary people first. I believe that the right to vote is a basic human right and also believe you should always use that vote. But how when none deserve my vote!

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:29 pm 
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landosenfina wrote:I'm saying no more other than this is interesting:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-nigel-farage ... 1130-90532


Yes, it's interesting. Hadn't seen it before. I don't think Farage handles any of the interview well, as he continually allows himself to be interrupted and he's generally kept hopping by a persistent terrier snapping at his ankles. But I suppose he's not a Prime Minister in waiting, really. He's several levels below that on the current political scene, it seems to me.

Protest vote?

I like the line, "We're happy to have a debate about our idiots..."


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 6:34 pm 
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guess there's no such thing as bad publicity - ukip got mentioned on the national broadcaster over here so its obviously causing waves here too - on the ground level anyone i talk to about them use quite extremish right wing terminology - labour here these days are more right than left - jobs for the family..... gilmore had his chance....


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Brown Dawn wrote:on the ground level anyone i talk to about them use quite extremish right wing terminology


People have them confused with the BNP, and the other parties - running scared - are perpetuating that notion. There's been some quite incredible anti-UKIP smearing in recent days, including a faked UKIP leaflet put online by a Green Party activist who was visited by the police for it, though nothing happened further, apparently because the police were confused about what had happened and how Twitter works. I've questioned the Green guy and he's changed his story as this has gone on. He was on Twitter again earlier today re-tweeting some fake UKIP posters.

I find it ironic that there's a Green doing this (though it needs to be said he seems to be acting alone and he's just one of those idiots all parties have). I remember in the early 80s the other parties and the media were running scared from the Greens and used that same tactic, stating all sorts of things as Green policy that weren't. I had a copy of the Green manifesto for 83, and all these lies were falsely claimed to be in there.

UKIP do have some traditionally right-wing people, but also a large number of moderates. As far as can see, that's true of every party, in different proportions, including Labour.

It also seems to me that the old right/left divisions are ceasing to be meaningful, despite people clinging to them. With a Blairite Labour party that was almost as right as the right parties, and an EU that some people call Communist and some call facist for the same reasons, as far as I can see it's all about people who want to impose their power rather than running things for the sake of the people, and the rest is just window-dressing.

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Owen Paterson: "I didn't move the goalposts. The badgers moved the goalposts." But the badgers never thought it was a fair game in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:16 pm 
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Location: Lost beyond the Black Hole's apparent horizon - Yorkshire
Excellent post Sweep, neatly summarises the situation. We're stuck with voting for the least bad candidate instead of the best candidate..

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:02 pm 
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yeah that could be right over here Sweep - media and all that - good point in fact - the greens here took their bicycles out of the boot of the big car - then they cycled into dail eireann in front of the camera's (100 yards up the road- some rubbish - beware your bedmates!)- my personal vote is for dave brock


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