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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Location: Kent, UK, in an unfashionable spiral arm of the galaxy
Despite having determindly strong views, I don't normally do political debate. The rise and rise of Farage and UKIP, however, has caused me to pause and (temporarily) reverse this.

I can see the logic of a 'protest vote'. I have myself, despite them not having a chance of getting in, voted for Green party candidates because of my beliefs, yet used my vote more tactically and selected more mainstream candidates during more crucial votes.

I can see why people are unhappy with the perceived flow of migrants into some areas. I live in Kent and we have a lot of problems with the migrant community ranging from pickpocketing, benefit fraud, anti-social behaviour and prostitution (I don't agree with the 'taking our jobs' opinion, nor that these problems are racially driven. It's just a simple matter of opportunists taking the opportunities that were there - just like the ex-pats living on the 'Costa del Crime', eh?).

I can also see a whole bunch of UKIP candidates whose core beliefs are totally at odds with mine. Pro-fracking, pro-public smoking, pro-hunting, anti-European, wanting to cut 2 million public service jobs, culling of local authority jobs, doubling the armed forces, an end to multiculturalism, doubling of prison places, 'boot camps', buying US nuclear missiles, breaking up of the NHS so that some parts can go private, homophobia, scrapping wind farms, supporting coal-fired power stations and scrapping promotion and budget for climate change.

These policies - every one of them - are fundamentally noxious to me. They are xenophobic, anti-progressive and harmful to the psyche of a nation that I am so proud of. We British are better than this.

Time and again UKIP candidates have been proved to be, at best, clots and, at worst. bigots. One candidate said women should take some responsibility if they were raped. Another said black residents (such as Lenny Henry) should emigrate to a 'black country'. Their leader now relies on thugs from 'Britain First' (ostensibly the new BNP, run by senior members of that 'party') to protect him from the public who hate him so much. This is the party who hired immigrants to play parts in their TV and poster canidates - as unemployed English people. This is the party who hired East European migrants to deliver their election leaflets. This is the party who claim they want nothing to do with Europe yet their leader claims hundreds of thousands of pounds from its parliament and pays his immigrant German wife out of that pot.

My personal view is that UKIP are amongst the worst threat to British politics since the blackshirts in the 1930s. They are a vile bunch, determined to push their vile views behind a single promoted policy - immigration.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Good post Jimski.

We can only guess at UKIP's current economic policies but there has been mention of a single 30 odd percent combined tax and national insurance rate and the old chestnut of abolishing inheritance tax. Both good news for the better off.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:22 pm 
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I'm not clear what you mean by perceived - italicised? To perceive is to see, or pick up with another of the senses. You perceive what's there, unless you happen to be psychotic.

Jimski wrote:(I don't agree with the 'taking our jobs' opinion...


Well, I saw them flood into a company and destroy it, which meant my job went along with many others. They were here because they got better pay than they'd get at home, most of them were probably unemployable at home because they were so appalling and many of them had criminal records, and because they were given child benefit and so on. They laughed in our faces while wrecking our livelihood.

Jimski wrote:... nor that these problems are racially driven. It's just a simple matter of opportunists taking the opportunities that were there - just like the ex-pats living on the 'Costa del Crime', eh?).


As the main problem is East Europeans I'd agree this isn't racial so far as while British people are concerned. It does become a race issue when East European agency foremen openly discriminate, though.

Regarding opportunists - should we be inviting opportunists into the country, especially when we're giving them an advantage over other people from outside the EU?

Regarding the UKIP people you've mentioned, I agree. But the same is true of every political party. If we wait for the nice people party to turn up I'm sorry to say we'll have a very long wait, and the damage in the meantime will be massive.

I also think the best way to ensure UKIP isn't driven by the nut element is to challenge the nutty ideas at every turn. For some people more politically motivated it might be a good idea to join the party and vote against the daft ideas.

In addition, the unacceptable ideas you've quoted sound horribly familiar from the parties we already have.

To single out one, the homophobia issue, there are conflicting views on this in UKIP. They have some elderly retired colonel types who this relates to, but they also have their own LGBT section.

Jimski wrote:Time and again UKIP candidates have been proved to be, at best, clots and, at worst. bigots.


Be fair on this. Some of them have, but many others haven't. They've had to assemble candidates at very short notice and they've had some nutters - many of them defectors from the Tory patrty, where their unacceptable ideas were never challenged. And UKIP has got rid of people several times, whereas the other parties just put them on one side until the fuss has died down.

Jimski wrote:One candidate said women should take some responsibility if they were raped.


I Think that was a party donor, not a candidate? Reprehensible of course, but hardly different from many of the donors for the other parties.

Jimski wrote:Another said black residents (such as Lenny Henry) should emigrate to a 'black country'.


Yes, that was appalling. I seem to remember they got rid of him. I might add that this was a case of an appalling comment in reply to a silly and borderline racist one. Much as I like Lenny Henry I wonder what he was thinking when he claimed there should be more black people on TV. Surely there should be people in jobs based on their ability, not their colour?

Jimski wrote:Their leader now relies on thugs from 'Britain First' (ostensibly the new BNP, run by senior members of that 'party') to protect him from the public who hate him so much.


This is the first I've heard of that. And polls don't seem to reflect this hatred from the British public. If they really do hate him so much he'll disappear after the elections.

Jimski wrote:This is the party who hired immigrants to play parts in their TV and poster candidates - as unemployed English people.


Maybe. I'm only aware of one Irish actor to pose for a photo (and I don't think he was presented as a specific person, just a representation?) But in any case you need to say "This is one of the parties" etc. Labour have just been caught with a Mayor and several other party members posing as `ordinary people.'

Jimski wrote:This is the party who hired East European migrants to deliver their election leaflets.


They hired an agency. The fact that jobs went to East Europeans precisely illustrates UKIP's point (and mine earlier) about that happening. And can you imagine the fuss if they'd specified to the agency that they didn't want East Europeans to have the job? You can't, logically, damn them whatever they do.

Jimski wrote:This is the party who claim they want nothing to do with Europe yet their leader claims hundreds of thousands of pounds from its parliament and pays his immigrant German wife out of that pot.


Nigel Farage has said quite openly to the European Parliament that he's the turkey who will vote for Christmas. UKIP have used the allowances the EU push onto their MEPs for constructive work. In one early case they paid the legal fees for a grocer who was taken to court for selling goods in Imperial rather that metric measures because his customers had asked him to. And so on. And regarding Nigel Farage's wife being German - surely that's proof that UKIP aren't racist against foreigners?

Jimski wrote:My personal view is that UKIP are amongst the worst threat to British politics since the blackshirts in the 1930s. They are a vile bunch, determined to push their vile views behind a single promoted policy - immigration.


I don't trust UKIP and I'm certainly not a party member, but I find myself defending them simply because of the misinformation that's coming out and being repeated. They aren't angels- they're politicians, and they need watching carefully like any other party. But they're no worse than any of the others and in many cases arguably better. (For instance, they have a few idiots in their ranks, but do they have an Iain Duncan Smith, to give just one example?) After the last Labour government and the current coalition, what choice do we have?

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:34 pm 
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defend anyone at your peril - particularly poltiticians!! -influxes of people over in ireland was more good than bad - met a lot of nice people who brought nice food and opened up good shops where never before you could buy things like fresh coriander - people over here 'can't afford to work' and thats fair enough i guess - ireland gave its fisheries et al to 'europe' and then went bankrupt - (please mrs merkel - i'm hungry)


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 pm 
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If we just had people selling fresh coriander there wouldn't be a problem.

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Owen Paterson: "I didn't move the goalposts. The badgers moved the goalposts." But the badgers never thought it was a fair game in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:51 pm 
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haha!- i agree - such is life but it needs to be watched - oiche mhaith


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:30 am
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Location: UK - N Devon
I spoiled my voting paper, last election I went to. And then complained to the BBC when "spoiled votes" weren't tallied along with all the other crap. Bastards.

Cue wastepaper basket....


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 4389
'In the year 2525 if man is still alive' - and.can't sleep - a bit of the bacchus plateau might help!


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:38 pm
Posts: 4389
when they tried electronic voting over here a person didn't have the option of spoiling one's vote - those expensive machines are now worm-munch in some shed - then there's these 'treaties' like the Nice one which wasn't voted in the first time and re-ran after government scaring the pants off people and it went through - i voted against it twice - a tangled web


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:26 am
Posts: 105
Location: Brockian SW London
Jimski wrote:Despite having determindly strong views, I don't normally do political debate. The rise and rise of Farage and UKIP, however, has caused me to pause and (temporarily) reverse this.

I can see the logic of a 'protest vote'. I have myself, despite them not having a chance of getting in, voted for Green party candidates because of my beliefs, yet used my vote more tactically and selected more mainstream candidates during more crucial votes.

I can see why people are unhappy with the perceived flow of migrants into some areas. I live in Kent and we have a lot of problems with the migrant community ranging from pickpocketing, benefit fraud, anti-social behaviour and prostitution (I don't agree with the 'taking our jobs' opinion, nor that these problems are racially driven. It's just a simple matter of opportunists taking the opportunities that were there - just like the ex-pats living on the 'Costa del Crime', eh?).

I can also see a whole bunch of UKIP candidates whose core beliefs are totally at odds with mine. Pro-fracking, pro-public smoking, pro-hunting, anti-European, wanting to cut 2 million public service jobs, culling of local authority jobs, doubling the armed forces, an end to multiculturalism, doubling of prison places, 'boot camps', buying US nuclear missiles, breaking up of the NHS so that some parts can go private, homophobia, scrapping wind farms, supporting coal-fired power stations and scrapping promotion and budget for climate change.

These policies - every one of them - are fundamentally noxious to me. They are xenophobic, anti-progressive and harmful to the psyche of a nation that I am so proud of. We British are better than this.

Time and again UKIP candidates have been proved to be, at best, clots and, at worst. bigots. One candidate said women should take some responsibility if they were raped. Another said black residents (such as Lenny Henry) should emigrate to a 'black country'. Their leader now relies on thugs from 'Britain First' (ostensibly the new BNP, run by senior members of that 'party') to protect him from the public who hate him so much. This is the party who hired immigrants to play parts in their TV and poster canidates - as unemployed English people. This is the party who hired East European migrants to deliver their election leaflets. This is the party who claim they want nothing to do with Europe yet their leader claims hundreds of thousands of pounds from its parliament and pays his immigrant German wife out of that pot.

My personal view is that UKIP are amongst the worst threat to British politics since the blackshirts in the 1930s. They are a vile bunch, determined to push their vile views behind a single promoted policy - immigration.


Thank God for this post. I was beginning to think that the forum had taken collective leave of their senses. UKIP are basically the people May andCameron wanted to get rid of when they talked about the "nasty party". They are the old Tories who were into homophobic legislation etc. And indeed have Neil "brown paper bag" Hamilton as one of their spokesmen. Cameron, Clegg and Milliband may be various forms of post-Blairite politician who don't believe in anything except what the latest focus group tells them, but Farage and co are unreconstructed Thatcherites.

And the idea that a UK that was out of the EU wouldn't be into the current wave of anti-Russian propaganda is nonsense. Cameron is one of those leading away and the EU foreign representative is a Brit. Scotland, Wales and N Ireland dropping off the UK might finally convince the politicians here that acting as if 1% of the world population constituted a world power was nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:50 pm 
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Location: Lost beyond the Black Hole's apparent horizon - Yorkshire
I still say that anyone who expresses the wish to lead a country should be automatically banned from doing so....

I made a tactical vote, not for a cause I believe in but just to do my bit to the Tory downfall. What we need is a change to a government for Britain instead of all the current shower who think London IS Britain.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:38 pm 
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When I was younger, politicians of both sides (love them or loathe them) were people of conviction who had ideas about society. Not business, or money, or any of the artificial measures they hold up.

Looking at most of the rabble who pass themselves off as politicians today, all I see are career politicians, trapped by blind rhetoric, with vast chasms between them and the people. Sadly, it isn't much of a jump from that position to the swaggering rabble-rousers who think that politics is all about shouting loudly and blaming others. And that's dangerous.

Where are the movers and shakers, the men and women of vision who see an inclusive and constructive future? I'm most worried because I can't tell if the current bunch are a product of public opinion, whether public opinion is being led by these people or, more likely, it's all being led by industry and media.

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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Whoever you vote for, the Government will get in.

I don't think defending one's borders is nasty! I suppose the basic trouble is, extremes tend to breed extremes. We had maniacal immigration and now it's suddenly become fashionable to talk about it.

I do admit, though, that I lean somewhat towards the Enoch Powell view of things, and if anyone called me a multi-culturalist then I'd be shocked and offended.


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:11 pm 
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there was a lot of truth in the comedy 'Yes Minister' - civil servants and all that - good old Jim Hacker!!


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 Post subject: Re: Euro elections
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:09 pm 
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Having disagreed with Jimski's earlier post - for the reasons I argued in detail - I certainly agree with this one.

And I think HairyGT4 sums up the whole problem with politicians of all parties - they're people who want power, which is automatically suspect. I think the same goes for party donors, who tend to want to influence policy, which is automatically questionable in my view.

Naturally I question Peter C's post for all the reasons I've already outlined in my response to Jimski's post from yesterday.

I agree about the old Tories moving over to UKIP. That's a problem. In fact any Tories moving over to UKIP worry me. I do think it's interesting, though, to note that the last old Tory who moved to UKIP and was publicised for making unacceptable statements had made those statements many years before when an active member of the Tory party, and no-one had commented. To be precise he'd been a Tory MEP for 15 years and had made his unacceptably homophobic comments after one year of that, in a written publication the Tories must have known about - so the Tories had kept him in his MEP position for 14 years with no questions asked.

I find it, quite frankly, astounding, that anyone can take Theresa May's and David Cameron's word for who exactly is `nasty.' Without denying the definite problems within UKIP, I would have thought Cameron's party is one of the nastiest we've seen in recent history. Ask the sick and the disabled for their views on this, for example.

The Labour party is still full of Blairites, and in view of the appalling Labour government we had last time I view a new Labour government with almost as much concern as the Tories and LibDems. I don't trust UKIP either, but still intend to vote for them in the EU elections for tactical reasons.

Regarding Thatcherites in UKIP - yes, no question about that. But we have Thatcherites in the current coalition who are taking things even further than Thatcher did, and the last Labour government was Thatcherite. Blair idolised Thatcher and invited her to no 10.

Of course we need to beware of Thatcherites in UKIP. But it's rather one-sided to just be watching UKIP when they're everywhere in every part of British politics.

My experience with the massive East European influx isn't an experience of nice people, either. Before they destroyed our company it wasn't very pleasant to be working with a rapist, a blackmailer, a very large number of thieves (ever changing as they got caught), and other people who we knew had served time in Polish prisons although we didn't always know what for. Naturally all East Europeans aren't like that, but we had an abnormally large number who were, which seems to indicate we have the people Eastern Europe quite understandably doesn't want.

One thing that especially disconcerted me was that we tended to divide the East Europeans into the ones we didn't trust and the ones we found ok, only to then find we couldn't trust the ones we thought were ok either. Again, this isn't a reflection on all East Europeans, but highlights the problem with having uncontrolled immigration rather than proper border controls.

Other experiences, unfortunately, confirm this. The last time I was among Romanians they were actually robbing each other and I was just caught in the middle, but that isn't an experience I think it's reasonable to have when I have a quiet afternoon out with a friend.

Having said all that, the thing about all of this for me is that unlike Graham I remain a multi-culturalist. I value the rich contribution people of all cultures have made both to Britain and the world as a whole. As a musician I'm influenced by music from all sorts of cultures and traditions, and play instruments from different parts of the world as well as listening to a massive range of music. I've studied meditation in Sri Lankan, Tibetan and Chinese traditions and spent time with people from those cultures as well as others. I've read literature from all over the world, mostly in translation although I've published articles on translation into English from Pali. I've known people and been friendly with people from all sorts of places from Poland to China.

But I don't like being invaded. I don't like people taking from this country and laughing in our faces. I don't like people who contribute little or nothing and just want to take. Put it this way, I like my neighbours and get on well with them. But if they came into my house, ate my food, went to my job and took the wages instead of me, and so on, I would not be very happy about that.

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