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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:16 pm 
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vikmarlo wrote:
self-proclaimed expert says this:

.... good vinyl is the only consumer playback format we have that's fully analog and fully lossless, and it a little bit more fool-proof and a little bit less technical so not as easy to screw it up !



I'm not sure this (in bold) is actually true. I'm no expert but this linked article suggests otherwise (scroll down to "Sampling fallacies and misconceptions") ...

"24/192 Music Downloads...and why they make no sense"
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:29 pm 
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i like cds too, just saying, all reissues on vinyl which i got, new maded in last 15 years are worse by pressing and sound to old releases. If you can buy old release in realy nice condition forget new releases


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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:30 pm 
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cd is 100 times better than new vinyl releases.

maybe you can find exception but...


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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:39 pm 
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okay, Ive been referred to (and have read, and duly forgotten ;-) ) that article previously (possibly by you :-D ) ; I took [expert] to mean: vinyl is the only playback format that is both fully analog and fully lossless, but only to production-pressing and then wear and time kick in. I cant remember why I initially disagreed with some of the things said in that article you linked Steam, but I seem to recall there being evidence of two sides in what is largely an industry battle over favoured technologies currently in use, that has nothing to do with sound quality or the consumers interests, but rather monetary interests of the companies which use them ( vaguely reminiscent to the way the oil industry fought against research and development of solar energy since the 1950s) IIRC.

I agree with you, Black Adder on your last point. But I also think is now possible for a CD to sound better than even the vintage vinyl that was made in the traditional 1950s-through-1970s process, straight from analog production-master to lacquer to plate to heavyweight virgin-vinyl by people who actually care and know what they're doing.

*PS
obviously I'm no expert either, merely interested and inquisitive if somewhat lazy at the moment but if there's a hole in that statement, AAD leaps instantly to mind; can we say it is fully analog if only the playback is digital? employing state-of-the-art cutting edge mastering I referred to)


Last edited by vikmarlo on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:57 pm 
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i dont see why not if you think analog vs digital. digital to people sound more clean unnatural thats why it can be better than human ear. if we talk about media cd vs record, than record is inferior because of noise and cracking thing and spiral force


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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:59 pm 
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but like digital have good advances analog can sound good too. some said dont compare those two because tthey are different


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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:02 pm 
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exactly, Black Adder.
Interesting point about spiral force which I had not heard of or imagined before... but adds to the similar reasons why I switched from Vinyl to CD starting from the late 1980s

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Another topic which overlaps:

the-last-audiophile-t6099.html?hilit=The%20Last%20Audiophile

As far as I've been able to tell MQA technology has not found its way into CD production yet although it easily could be incorporated into the production of CDs I think it has only made its way as far as downloading. Possibly some of the same detractors who aim to shoot down Neil Young's Pono technology have a go at this sort of thing as well. Of course the MP3 proponents always have their say ~ I wish they'd just stay home and listen to their shity little earbuds and let the folks with acute hearing who are not tone-deaf enjoy their HiFi!

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:36 am 
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I'm getting a sense of deja vu with this topic. :D

I think analog vs digital is a whole different question than vinyl vs CD.

Personally I own both vinyl and CD (but mainly vinyl, and for reasons other than sound).

I understood that while not all vinyl releases get done this way, some vinyl does definitely have its own mastering process and that could account for a large part why people think it sounds better - because you can't compress the master as much.

I think CD gets a bad rap that's largely undeserved though. I think what's making music sound 'bad' these days is heavy handed mastering. Steven Wilson's Hand Cannot Erase or Opeth's Pale Communion are excellent exceptions to this.

MP3, now that definitely does deserve all the shit it gets.

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Etherealise wrote:I'm getting a sense of deja vu with this topic. :D

I think analog vs digital is a whole different question than vinyl vs CD.

Personally I own both vinyl and CD (but mainly vinyl, and for reasons other than sound).

I understood that while not all vinyl releases get done this way, some vinyl does definitely have its own mastering process and that could account for a large part why people think it sounds better - because you can't compress the master as much.

I think CD gets a bad rap that's largely undeserved though. I think what's making music sound 'bad' these days is heavy handed mastering. Steven Wilson's Hand Cannot Erase or Opeth's Pale Communion are excellent exceptions to this.

MP3, now that definitely does deserve all the shit it gets.

...eQ...


good points, Etherealise ~ yes this topic does seem to remain in the re-run series longer than most...
:-)

to your first point: while I prefer CD (longevity of lossless playback, ease of care, greater capacity for
comprehensive encoding of signal and authentic sound reproduction), digital mixing (greater degree of precision and control of variability) and digital mastering ( a separate art from mixing, entailing the editing of minor flaws, applying noise reduction, repairing
gaps, dropouts, and short sections of corrupted audio, adjusting stereo width, adding ambience, equalizing audio across tracks for optimized frequency distribution, adjusting volume, compression or expansion of
dynamic range, peak limit, dither ~ all performed on the completed, mixed recording ~ not just on the individual multi-tracks), I definitely prefer analog recording to digital, as to range and capture of the original studio recording.

summed up acronymically:
AAD or ADD; not DDD

I definitely agree with your examples; Steven Wilson is a talented man in this respect, to be sure !

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:37 pm 
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That differentiation between mixing and mastering has become a much more blurred line in recent years.

A modern mastering engineer (working with mainstream, 'expensive' productions) will increasingly be asking for, if not the full multitrack files, separate 'stems' (or submixes of particular instruments) in order to produce a variety of different masters for different formats or even platforms.

Of course, these are often driven by commercial or technical, rather than purely artistic, considerations. Old school mastering for vinyl may well be a dying, or at least increasingly specialist, art.

I haven't bought any new vinyl in 20 years or more. Also, if what I've read is correct, the norm amongst the younger vinyl devotees is to buy the vinyl for the object but to listen to an accompanying download. You even see classic LPs being sold in supermarkets these days - which doesn't bode well for the sonic quality of the product if it matches the general quality of the food sold there.

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:45 am 
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vikmarlo wrote:...I definitely prefer analog recording to digital, as to range and capture of the original studio recording...


Oh yeah, I would love to be able to record in analogue, but unfortunately multitrack machines and tape are very expensive and hard to come by. I believe some people still track in analogue then convert to Pro-Tools for editing/mixing purposes. At least that way you capture some of the analogue character before you go digital.

I would say though that the analogue recordings I used to make when I first started out were inferior because they were on a multitrack cassette. 2" tape is a fine format, cassette not so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Cd vs Vinyl and Analog vs Digital
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:49 am 
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SteamAbacus wrote:That differentiation between mixing and mastering has become a much more blurred line in recent years.

A modern mastering engineer (working with mainstream, 'expensive' productions) will increasingly be asking for, if not the full multitrack files, separate 'stems' (or submixes of particular instruments) in order to produce a variety of different masters for different formats or even platforms.

Of course, these are often driven by commercial or technical, rather than purely artistic, considerations. Old school mastering for vinyl may well be a dying, or at least increasingly specialist, art.

I haven't bought any new vinyl in 20 years or more. Also, if what I've read is correct, the norm amongst the younger vinyl devotees is to buy the vinyl for the object but to listen to an accompanying download. You even see classic LPs being sold in supermarkets these days - which doesn't bode well for the sonic quality of the product if it matches the general quality of the food sold there.


Interesting, I didn't know that about mastering these days. I have used a traditional mastering service and only know that I had to send the first album back to be mastered less hot. Other than that it was good.

I have bought some new vinyl as mentioned but it's probably not indicative of most releases, what with Steven Wilson being involved. LPs on the supermarket shelves is a bit weird!

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